Hell - Man to Man part 2

Owen Kindig has a man to man conversation on what the Bible says about Hell with J. Murray Murdoch, emeritus professor of History at Cedarville University. Their viewpoints could not be more different, but their respect for the Bible and each other is profound. Enjoy this earnest and honest comparison of viewpoints on the most important themes of the Bible: what is faith, what is the gospel, what is salvation, and what are the genuine, biblical hopes for life and salvation for all people on planet earth? 

In this episode we discuss what the Bible says about "judgment", "sleep", "the soul", "hell", "the second death", and many other concepts spoken of by Jesus, the apostles, the prophets, and all the writers of the Bible. 

It is Near focuses on the alarming and the hopeful; the frightful and the forgotten; the blinding glare of giant problems, and the dark secrets that lurk even more menacingly in the shadows of global trends. "Amazing Grace" may have taught our hearts to fear, but for most Christians and non-Christians alike, divine grace as commonly conceptualized does not those fears relieve. It is Near will be informative, accessible, comforting, and challenging to every thinking person. It will call Christians to account and provide a breath of fresh air for secularists who, for once, would like to hear a conciliatory and intellectually honest message from a thoughtful Christian voice. Owen Kindig of Sitka, Alaska is your host, and is responsible for the content.

"Even the bad news is good news."

Transcript

Owen Kindig: 0:10

Welcome to It is Near. I'm Owen Kindig. This is episode five. Our second episode was "A Man to Man Talk about Hell", Part 1. It is a conversation between myself and Murray Murdock. We finished about half of what we recorded in that session. Now we're back with episode five, which is the second half of what we started in episode two.

And I want to begin this session with a reply that came in from a friend -- an old friend, Jim Burson. And he has about a seven minute response to episode two: scriptures that he felt were very important to include in our discussion and dialogue, some of which we did talk about, most of which we did not. There's a lot of Scripture that deals with this topic: 0:35

how many will be saved? What does salvation consist of? What is the future of the human race? What is the nature of death? All of those kinds of things we talked about, and we looked for common ground and didn't actually find a lot. But we did, we did find areas of agreement, and we did treat each other, I believe, in a civil and constructive way. We showed I think, love for each other, and I'm pleased with the tone that we were able to establish in our conversation. And I hope that if there's nothing else that comes from this episode, it will be the tone that exists between two brothers in Christ, who love Jesus, trust the Bible, and are looking to the Bible for answers about the future of the human race and all of the questions that we have in the life we spend walking by faith. So today, we're going to start with a seven minute or so commentary by Jim Burson about his reactions to episode number two, "A Man to Man Talk about Hell," part one. And then we will go right into the completion of my conversation with Murray Murdoch, on the topic of hell, and what the Bible really says about it. I think that it's important to remember that no one can claim with authority and credibility, that the Bible says one thing, and not the other. When we interpret and when we study the Bible, we should be humbled. When we attempt to come to conclusions about what the Bible says, we should couch those conclusions in humility and in sobriety, and in recognition of the goodness and intellectual effort that has been made down through the ages of understanding of Christian people. And as much as we might be tempted to declare, without any shadow of a doubt what we believe, I think that it's wise for each of us as we state our conclusions that we do so in a way that reflects some humility, and some recognition of the goodness and the hard work that has been done by people who loved God, and who have really labored to try to understand what the Bible says. It is work to understand what the Bible says, but it is work that's worth doing. And those of you who might be coming to this discussion, without much belief and faith in the Bible, I hope that you can find in our energy and our effort to try to parse words and understand what the Bible means -- I hope you can find in that something that inspires you to also want to learn more about what the Bible says. Please don't just roll your eyes and think, "oh, boy, these poor deluded guys, who are trying to make sense out of something that cannot possibly be understood!" No, I'm afraid that would be a mistake. The Bible is full of wisdom, and the Bible takes energy and the help of God's spirit to understand and no one can claim with a straight face and a true conscience, that they totally understand everything that it says. And even though I've spent over 50 years trying to understand the Bible, and so has Murray, and so has Jim [Burson], the one you're about to hear next. We all have a lot to learn. All of us have a lot to learn and Jim doesn't have all the answers. I don't have all the answers and Murray will be first to admit that he doesn't have all the answers either. But we do have things that we have been led to understand in our minds. And we are confident that the God behind the Bible has made it worth our while to labor in this work of trying to be blessed and comforted by what the Bible says. Okay, so here's Jim Burson, his reply to episode two. And then we will go into Episode Five, the conclusion of our "Man to Man Talk about Hell" between myself and J. Murray Murdoch. Thank you.

James T. Burson: 5:42

Hello, my name is James Burson. I'm from Grove City, Ohio. And this is the 18th of June 2023. I'm the author of two volumes, "Humanity in the Arms of a Loving Savior", and the second volume recently out from Study Shelf Publishing, in Windber, Pennsylvania, "The Cataclysmic Prophecies of the Jews and their Divine Purpose."

Mr. Kindig, and I have been friends for many years, and I have deep respect and love for this man and his family. And we've exchanged thoughts over the years many times, I want to bring this thought to the forefront. "The significance of the Scripture in the manner in which we content ourselves with a purpose of God in Christ, the outcome of infinite grace," is the center of my considerations. In these recent times, I am confident that the purpose of God that is in Christ is not subject to failure, nor is it subject to placing God in a shameful position of not having accomplished the words that we have been given in verse, [John 3: 6:09

16-17] and we all know it, but we fail to quote, verse 17, after reading 16.

Paul was very, very clear. He was given a revelation of the secret, in Ephesians, [1: 7:10

10] and that that revelation has greatly to do with that purpose, which is set in the heavens, and most certainly will be accomplished, beginning on the terrestrial orb we call home.

John 1: 7:32

20, "Behold the Lamb of God ..." (and we love to quote such verses as this) ... "which takes away the sin of the world." This is not a limited or half hearted activity of the Divine. This is that which will be achieved in Christ, ultimately. "And there is no other name given among men whereby men must be saved." And we know that verse, that word "must", has a different, less connotation to it and the usage today, but the word must come from the three letter Greek word, Delta, epsilon, iota, and it simply means inevitable, that which inevitably, will be saved.

First Corinthians 15, I find to be a very powerful statement of faith as to the outcome of infinite grace -- Christ. One died for all, Christ died for us all, consequently, all died. [2 Cor 5:14] And we know in verse 22 [of 1 Cor 15] , "as in Adam all die, even so in Christ, all shall be made alive; yet each in his own order." We go down to verse 22, through 28, Christ's having subjected will completely achieve his objective of subjecting all unto Himself, the last enemy, to be subjected by Christ is death. And when that is achieved, "he himself had been become subject to the Father who subjects all things unto him". Having achieved that, then, and only then, can the Father come all in all, and it's the first is in the form of the verb, all things to all mankind. And that is all inclusive, retroactive to the first man, "as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." For me, to me, every knee shall be that be bowing, and every tongue shall be acclaiming." Romans 14:11. And Hebrews, the writer of Hebrews, is marvelous in this regard: "yet now we are not yet seeing all subject to him. "...that he should be tasting death for the sake of everyone". The Father sent His son into The World to want to do one thing: to draw all things unto him." I believe is John 12:32: "If I be lifted up, I will be drawing all unto me." And the word "things" is unfortunate because they didn't connotes the idea of something inanimate. The word things in the Authorized text should not be there. It simply should be "the all" in the masculine form. "Things" -- Christ did not die for tables and chairs, automobiles or boats -- but he died for Adams seed, and we are of that origin. Christ gave His flesh in order that he would save the world, John 6:51, he came not to judge the world, but to save the world, John 12:47. And Acts 24: 8:16

15, "and had hope toward God that there shall be a resurrection of the both the just and also the unjust" in the resurrection. There are so many marvelous precious verses of scripture that Paul said, he said, "For this reason, am I suffering and being reproached -- that I rely on the living God who is the Savior of all mankind."

Wonderful verse, in Ephesians, 1: 11:17

10, "he might gather together all in one in Christ, both on the earth and in the heavens."

And that's the extent of this magnificent purpose of God. And Christ is not only terrestrial, in Ephesians, three, nine and 10: "principalities, powers, and authorities in the heavens, will be affected by the display of the glory of His grace," ultimately through Christ and through the body of Christ, who will be sent into the Celestials. The Jews have their destiny on this earth, those of the Body of Christ, not the bride, but the body of Christ will be sent into the heavenlies. So that "every knee shall bow for both in heaven and on earth, and beneath the earth." As 1 Timothy 2: 11:27

10 and 11 -- "God will have all men be saved" it's his will. It's not his wish. It's will -- his determinate counsel, his sovereign delight. It's a marvelous Greek word to look up. "

The Lord is not willing that any should perish, but that all should be coming to the knowledge of the truth and to repentance. -- Second, Peter three nine. "All flesh shall see the salvation of God" -- Luke 3: 12:24

6, a quote from the Old Testament, when all the high places brought down the low places brought up the rough places made smooth, when those things are accomplished, with God's workings with mankind, then when that's all accomplished, that's achieved, then shall all flesh come to the knowledge of the truth.

Christ didn't come to judge the world, He came to save the world. John 12:47. John 3: 13:06

16-17

First John 2: 13:12

2, "he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only -- but for the sins of the whole world, the sins of the whole world had been preapproved, propitiated. All mankind -- and I say this with emphasis -- have been saved through the blood of the cross," They just do not know it yet! Paul said "this same gospel, declare I unto you," when he was speaking on Mars Hill, to the to the scholars from Greece. Paul was emphatic as to the accomplishment of Christ on the cross as having not a limited, hardly achieved outcome, but it will be to the glory of His grace, that these things shall be accomplished. I want to thank Owen Kindig, for this opportunity for me to present these few thoughts. I have great confidence in Owens' teaching and Owen's reliance on the living God. I know he is committed to the truths of scripture, and I leave these things in our Lord's hands.

Owen Kindig: [continuing "Hell -- A Man to Man Talk" -- conversation with Murray Murdoch -- Let's start with verse 13 (of 2 Corinthians 5). "For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God. If we are in our right mind, it is for you, for the love of Christ controls us. Because we have concluded this: 13:13

that one has died for all, therefore, all have died. And he died for all that those who live might know longer live for themselves, but for him who for their sake died, and was raised.

2 Cor 5: 15:06

16 -- "From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh, even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation, the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ, reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation. That is, in Christ, God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God, for our sake, he made him to be sin, who knew no sin so that in him we might become the righteousness of God?" How do you read all that?

J. Murray Murdoch: 16:14

That's a simple plan of salvation. Man is a sinner, dead in trespasses and sin, by faith in Jesus Christ. Christ takes our sin upon himself and discharges it because he value that he doesn't need he, US and became sin for us, right, then discharges it. Yeah. And puts us into the righteousness of God, salvation so that we stand before God in righteousness, right? I don't stand before God in my sinfulness. I stand before God as one who's at Christ paid for my sins, right? And I can stand close in the righteousness of God.

Owen Kindig: 16:49

I agree with that. But what I, I'm seeing something else in there that I want to run by you and see how you react to it. Okay. Two parts to this. The first part is that he talks in there, not only about us, he talks about reconciling the world. He says, "All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry or service of reconciliation, that is, in Christ, God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them." And "entrusting to us," which I think he means the church, the followers of Jesus, "the message of reconciliation". So that first part of this is that I'm, as I'm reading this, to me, it feels like what he's saying is, "at the present time, through the sacrifice of Christ, he's applying the merit of Christ on behalf of the church so that they can be brought up to a state of righteousness. So that so that then they can serve God as bearers of the message of reconciliation to the rest of the world."

J. Murray Murdoch: 18:16

That's evangelism.

Owen Kindig: 18:17

Okay, so as you read it, then I am I correct in understanding that you are applying that process only to the Christian age?

J. Murray Murdoch: 18:27

Yes.

Owen Kindig: 18:28

W hereas when I read it, I'm applying most of the reconciling of the world to God to the millennial age. And I'm thinking, I'm thinking that the, during the Christian age, God isn't even imputing the sins of the world against them. It's not part is he's not worried about it. He's going to he's going to apply the merit of Christ on their behalf in the millennium. And then they will be, then their past sins will be overlooked so that they can have a period of time when they're trained and taught and brought the message by the church who become the, ... well, in Revelation they become the gates of salvation, they become the gates to the temple.

J. Murray Murdoch: 19:10

I see that in terms of this being the church age that we're in right now. Not in the millennium.

Owen Kindig: 19:15

Okay,

J. Murray Murdoch: 19:16

this is a church age. churches

Owen Kindig: 19:17

Okay. All right. Okay,

J. Murray Murdoch: 19:19

and up to carry out the ministry of reconciliation.

Owen Kindig: 19:23

And so the ministry of reconciliation from that perspective would be talking to our neighbors now.

J. Murray Murdoch: 19:29

Yeah.

Owen Kindig: 19:30

Okay.

J. Murray Murdoch: 19:30

I sat down at Der Dutchman the other day.

Owen Kindig: 19:33

Okay, Emil.

J. Murray Murdoch: 19:34

A Gentlemen, I sat across from was prearranged that he would be there.. And I shared with him the gospel, right, that you only believe if you place your faith in Jesus shall be born again. And he said, I want to do that.

Owen Kindig: 19:50

Really.

J. Murray Murdoch: 19:50

So he accepted Christ as his personal Savior there on the spot in Der Dutchman and received Christ as his personal Savior. Sunday he went to Church was pastored by a Cedarville graduate. And he told him what he had done. And in church they have met with him now, people from that church and put them in a group, and they're discipling him.. And that's the ministry of reconciliation.

Owen Kindig: 20:14

Okay. And you don't see it as something that is intended to be expanded in the future.

J. Murray Murdoch: 20:21

I see that as a minute the the responsibility of the church, and I believe for today,

Owen Kindig: 20:29

yeah. Okay. How do you think the church is doing and that responsibility? Well,

J. Murray Murdoch: 20:33

not very. Yeah. And I think you can see that in society. Yeah. But yet the Bible predicts the society is going to continue to disintegrate. Yes. So. So I don't think we have the concern for for event when I was a kid, you'd have evangelistic crusades. Yeah. Right. sort of thing. You not see much of that anymore. No. And Billy Graham had a great ministry of evangelism to people. Hundreds of people turn to Christ to Graham's ministry. Yeah. And many of the church criticized others. Were blessed by him. Yeah. But he was very clear statement of the gospel. This is the gospel of Jesus Christ, according to the scripture, right, bounded bounded bounded,

Owen Kindig: 21:19

and he kept it simple and focused on the basic knitting. Yeah, I agree. I went to a couple of his crusades. Yeah. Just to

J. Murray Murdoch: 21:27

our former presidents. Paul Dixon. Yeah. At the ministry of evangelism. And he did it through local churches, churches. Yeah, we'll do we crusades,

Owen Kindig: 21:36

and he was gifted. He was very gifted in that regard. He was

J. Murray Murdoch: 21:39

very gifted. Very good. So he's very gifted. Yeah. Living today and still discipling people from the gospel. Do you see him much? I don't see much, but occasionally, yeah, that's good. So it's good to see him. Yeah. I

Owen Kindig: 21:53

love him.

J. Murray Murdoch: 21:54

He's a good man. Good man. Dr. White's a good man. Ministry.

Owen Kindig: 21:59

I was impressed with his a couple of the sermons that I heard him recently,

J. Murray Murdoch: 22:03

always hear the Gospel budget.

Owen Kindig: 22:06

I love the way he stands. He has the whole congregation stands while they're reading the text. Yes. And it just kind of making him think about the importance and value of having something that actually is the words of God is coming into their ears right now. You know, he doesn't want him to forget that weight of that importance. That's a beautiful thing. I love that.

J. Murray Murdoch: 22:33

Yeah. He's a wonderful guy. And he's, he's not just a college president. He's a he's a disciple, Verizon. Evangel. Evangelist. Yeah. And at Cedarville you see kids every year come to know Christ as Savior.

Owen Kindig: 22:51

Even though they're even though on paper they did already,

J. Murray Murdoch: 22:55

even though they didn't already. Yeah. That's what I call making the faith that your father is a faith of your personal Yeah. relationship with God. Right. Okay. A lot of people in the Christian faith are Christians, because their dad was a Christian and their mom was a Christian, right? And there comes a time when it's gotta be internalized. It's you, it's got to be you. Right. And that's the battle that a lot of Christian young people face, so called Christian young people face. They take the values of their parents, but they don't internalize those values. They don't mean anything to them. It just is what my family believes. Right. Right. But then they come to that point where they had that personal relationship. Yeah. That's so vital. I agree. I remember I was a kid, I was five years old. I remember being very burden for my sin and wanting some vision to Christ. I remember kneeling in my parents bedroom with mom on one side and then on the other and Christ to save me from my sins.

Owen Kindig: 23:51

Wow. And you were five, five years old. That's amazing. And

J. Murray Murdoch: 23:56

you know that, that that commitment is less than for any of the five years I've been lying?

Owen Kindig: 24:03

Well, do you remember when your sons internalized it for themselves?

J. Murray Murdoch: 24:09

Yes, I do. What was it like? It was very dramatic. It was very, that I want to do this, um, I want to do this. And it became very personal to that and I'll be praying together and ended up with both boys as a family unit.

Owen Kindig: 24:26

How old were they?

J. Murray Murdoch: 24:28

I don't remember their ages. I'm sorry. No, it's okay. I remember the event but I don't remember their ages. Yeah, it was as children.

Owen Kindig: 24:36

Yeah. So they preteen Yeah, my my kids. It was later. My first three were wanting to be emerged. They kind of each came to their own individual decision, but then they all decided to be immersed together. And I had the blessing and privilege of being the one who immersed them And one thing that was interesting about it was that our church had had a split. But for that day, we all met at Hoover reservoir. And they were all both both parts of the split. We're standing on the bluff overlooking the water. When we sang together, and they were I got to immerse them and pray with them in the waters. That was a really amazing day. Yeah, that must have been great. Yeah, it was. It was good. It's bittersweet, because we still did not resolve our differences. That's a shame. Yeah. But but all three of my daughters are my older three. symbolizes their their consecration to God then and then my youngest was was immersed at a different time. In Chicago. In Chicago. Yeah. And and her uncle baptized. Yeah.

J. Murray Murdoch: 25:58

I spent some good years in Chicago.

Owen Kindig: 26:00

Yeah. You went to college there. Yeah. Northwestern Northwestern. Yeah, it's an Evanston actually Evanston. Sure. But it's it's Chicago land. Yeah. All right. So we're, I think we're clear on the difference in how we're reading that passage. So then we have John 11, we're still I'm going back to the the biblical use of the word sleep and what it really means to the Bible. So I want to hear your comments on this. In John 11, we have the story of Lazarus. And so it's still under the page that says sleep. Okay, bottom of the page. Okay, John 1111, and 14 in verse 11, after saying these things, and he said to them, our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, and I go to awaken him. And the disciples said to Him, Lord, if he's falling asleep, he'll recover. That's a sign that he's getting better. Right. Now, Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest and sleep. Then Jesus told them plainly, Lazarus has died. And for your sake, I am glad that I was not there. So that you may believe let's go to him. So to me that I can't read that any other way. But then to think that Jesus wanted to make a point of saying that sleep as he's using the word refers to death. Absolutely. Okay. All right.

J. Murray Murdoch: 27:29

Does admonitions jerky said for this cause some of you are weak and other sleep. Right, using that same content.

Owen Kindig: 27:39

So is that is that Paul in testimonials when he says he can? Might be Yeah, okay. So,

J. Murray Murdoch: 27:47

I'm at five. Remember? I said I remember. This is my forgetter.

Owen Kindig: 27:53

Alright, so let's look down at let's look at Job 14 for a moment. starting with verse seven, the next page let me turn the page for it. Okay, so starting up there at the top. There is hope for a tree verse seven of job 14, there's hope for a tree if you'd be cut down that it will sprout again, and that it shoots will not cease, though its root grow old in the earth and its stumps die in the soil. Yet at the center of water, it will bud and put out branches like a young plant. But a man dies and is laid low. Man breeze his last and where is he? As waters fail from a lake and the river wastes away and dries up. So a man lies down and rises not again, till the heavens are no more. He will not awake or be raised out of roused out of his sleep. Now he introduces the word for hell. Oh, that you would hide me and she'll that you would conceal me until your raspy past that you would appoint me a set time and remember me if a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my service I would wait till my renewal should come. You would call and I would answer you you would long for the work of your hands for then you would number my steps you would not keep watch over my sin, my transgression would be sealed up in a bag and you would cover over my iniquity Alright, so there's job, obviously a righteous man. I mean, at the beginning of the book, he God says there was really no no one right? more righteous than job right. And yeah, he's conscious of his sin. And he just asks for the time when he will be remembered. All right, I want to jump ahead now. next to the last page. So it says till the heavens are no more, we read that passage which said, till the heavens are no more job, in Job Job said, A man lies down and rises not again till the heavens are no more he will not awake will be roused out of his sleep. Okay, so now let's turn to this, this is, Second Peter. And here we have the same phrase repeated in the New Testament in Peters words. When I discovered this, it was like an aha moment for me. To get the context, we should probably just read it. Let's start with verse five. I'll skip the first clause because I don't really want to zero in on the the actions of the unbelieving world. At this point, I just want to focus on what he says about heavens and earth. He says, by the Word of God, the heavens were evoked. So I'm right in here somewhere, a few verses down. By the word of God, the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water whereby the world then was being overflowed with water perished. Notice he had said the heavens and the earth in that first one heavens of Earth, that were, but the heavens and the earth which are now by the same word are kept in store reserved into fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. So notice, he's saying that the heavens and earth perished when the flood came, right. Okay, so we agree on that. And then he says, The heavens and the earth which are now are kept in store reserved onto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But beloved, be not ignorant for sate, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing that one day. Okay. One day is with the Lord as 1000 years and 1000 years as one day, the Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but as long suffering to us word, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. When he says to us word, I assume he means this is how I'm reading it. You might not read it this way. I'm reading it when he says his long suffering to us word. It's not that he's saying. He's long suffering toward the rest of the world of mankind. Not willing that any should perish, but that all should Condrey pens before Christ comes. What I think he's saying is, he's long suffering to us word that is the church, not willing that any should perish but that all should all of the church should come to repentance before he comes. Okay, that's what I that's how I read that. But anyway, but the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night in the which the heavens will pass away with a great noise. and the elements shall melt with fervent heat and the earth also in the works that are there in shall be burned up. And then he says in verse 11, Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner persons ought to be in all holy conversation, and godliness, looking at for and hasting to the coming of the day of God were in the heavens, again, the second one heavens and earth that are now the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved and the elements shall melt with fervent heat. Nevertheless, we according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness. Alright, so the question is, how do we read this? When I read it? I think it's saying that the heavens that are now are going to disappear or they're going to be destroyed. And, and then a new heavens and new earth will appear? Are we talking about a new planet? Or are we talking about heavens and earth, as it was in the first heaven? mean there was no new planet when the flood came, right? No, but there was a new heaven wasn't there. The new Heaven was that there was no opportunity for angels to come and marry women and so forth anymore. So the heavens were different, who was a new heavens? So now we have a new we have a heavens now that is dominated by Satan and his angels. And maybe the way I read it, perhaps it also refers to the ecclesiastical heavens, you know, the the confusion in the world of religion, both Christian and non Christian. It's a free for all. Yeah. Okay. So So if that's true, then put this with job until the heavens are no more a man has gone down and he's like a dry root of a dead tree, he's not going to bloom again. He's not going to sprout again. But when the heavens are no more, then he can, then he can sprout again. Whereas here, the heavens that are the new heavens and the new earth will make it possible for the human race to be resurrected. And to sprout again, the people who died in previous ages. That's how I'm reading it. I'd like your thoughts on this.

J. Murray Murdoch: 35:46

I'm not sure all humanity will have that. Before the church would have. That's my initial reaction.

Owen Kindig: 35:53

Okay. Okay.

J. Murray Murdoch: 35:55

I'm not done. Okay. I think that refers to the church.

Owen Kindig: 36:01

So the the, the church will be resurrected, yes. Okay. So do you think then, is it your opinion that the church is while it's still waiting for that new heavens to come about and to be resurrected? Do you? How do you feel about the church? Do you feel that they that all of the people who have been part of Christ's Church in the past have received a their heavenly reward that they've been resurrected and are with God in heaven? Yes.

J. Murray Murdoch: 36:33

absence from the body is presence of the Lord. Okay, even now, if I die tomorrow, I'm gonna be

Owen Kindig: 36:40

okay. All right. I hear what you're saying. And I can understand why he would say that. It's not crystal clear. That's why That's why people can spend 80 years 50 years reading the same book and not have come to the same conclusion on these questions.

J. Murray Murdoch: 36:59

Are there many denominations?

Owen Kindig: 37:02

It is, it is challenging. Okay, so then let's let's turn back because I have some scriptures on that issue. I just threw it together last night, and my friend printed it out and bound it for me, where I was staying in Michigan. Let's turn to this one that has John 528. This one here was sort of this page. Okay. So at the bottom of that page, I have First Thessalonians, four. Alright, and when do you want to read it first. It's good to size type. Start with verse 13.

J. Murray Murdoch: 37:37

We do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do, who have no hope. Or since we believe that Jesus died, and rose again, even so through Christ, through Jesus, God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep. For this, we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, were left until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself, so descend from heaven, the cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, was the sound of the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left will be caught up together in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore, encourage one another with these words.

Owen Kindig: 38:44

All right, good. So how do you read that?

J. Murray Murdoch: 38:46

I read that the Second Coming, okay. That's when Jesus returns the earth for the church.

Owen Kindig: 38:51

Okay, we're agreed there.

J. Murray Murdoch: 38:52

And at that point, hold those who have been in Christ with basic faith in Christ and have died, will be caught up. There'll be a physical resurrection.

Owen Kindig: 39:04

But but they're on in heaven. You said just a moment ago, you said they're already in heaven. So what does that mean? That if they

J. Murray Murdoch: 39:10

have physical resurrection, where they'll be rejoined with their bodies? Okay, to the dead in Christ rise from the grave. They were buried without their spiritual essence in the grave, that their physical body that has to be

Owen Kindig: 39:25

Oh, I see. So you're talking about the resurrection of the spirit of the physical body?

J. Murray Murdoch: 39:29

Yeah. And rejoined with the Spirit. Hmm.

Owen Kindig: 39:33

So then where would they have to be with they can't really be in heaven, can they? Because it's a human fleshly body can't really survive ins in

J. Murray Murdoch: 39:41

Well, at that point. The spirits are in heaven. They've joined with bodies and together we go to meet the Lord. I don't know what we're gonna get dressed up. spiritual body, what's going to happen?

Owen Kindig: 39:52

Okay. All right. Okay. All right. Well, it's helpful to me for you to understand better how you read this Because this, okay? Because the way I read it the ones who are, who have preceded us who are not who you know who Paul and looser, and you know, all of the great people of faith and throughout the Christian era, all of them, I think, it seems to me is this is saying they are asleep, which to me means they're dead, which means to me means they're unconscious. And that the first thing that happens when Christ returns is that they are resurrected and join Christ. And then those who are still in the flesh, who are followers of Jesus, then they will join him afterwards, you know, and until until the whole body is assembled in heaven. Yeah, that's how I read it

J. Murray Murdoch: 40:57

was those bodies rise, to rejoin with their spirit?

Owen Kindig: 41:02

To just to me, okay, so, so my understanding of the concept of the spirit and the soul, and all of that is that when when God told when it describes the creation of Adam, it says that he formed his body from the dust of the ground, he breathed into his nostrils the breath or spirit of life, and then man became a living soul. That's how I understand it. So to me, that means that a soul equals a soul is the same way of saying, and a body that is breathing. When you have a body, and it's animated with the power of life, and it's breathing, now it's alive. It's conscious. And that equals, it's a living soul.

J. Murray Murdoch: 41:52

Yes. Because intellect, emotion as well.

Owen Kindig: 41:55

Exactly, exactly. And, and even, you can even say, because the same word is used nephesh. In Hebrew, the same word is used of the apparently the mammal creation, the breathing, members of the animal kingdom, they also are spoken of as souls. So they too, are conscious sentient beings, they obviously have more, they aren't in the image of God, they, they, they aren't equivalent to men, but they have that much. They have a human or not human, they have an earthly organism, and they have the power or Spirit of God in their, you know, in them, activating them, making them alive, making all those chemicals work together. And then they have consciousness. And they're, we're learning more every day about the consciousness of animals, it's a little more deep and broad than we expect expected. Yeah, because they are a reflection of God's animating power and authority. So at any rate, I that's how I'm reading this. So when I read for students first as for I'm getting the idea that the Christians were asleep for however many 100 years. And when Jesus returns, the first thing he does is resurrect them. Yes. And then the others follow. Now there's two possibilities. One is that we all follow at once in the rapture. Yes, the and that's the dominant view today. My view? Yeah. The other view is that the rapture is, is a gradual process, that there's a period of time when Christ is invisibly present. And during that period of time, any Christians who die join that assembled resurrected company in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, they are trans, they, instead of sleeping, they immediately have their spiritual resurrection and become part of the body of Christ in heaven. That's, that's a different way of reading that same passage, but that's kind of beyond the scope of today's discussion. We will never get to bed tonight if we keep going on all of those options. Okay, so at any rate, so let's while we're on this page, let's go back up to John 528 29. Are you doing okay? Are you do you need anything? No, I'm

J. Murray Murdoch: 44:25

we getting weaker

Owen Kindig: 44:27

you're getting weaker. Okay. So and we're already at almost four o'clock so we're we're kind of have to sunset this discussion. This

J. Murray Murdoch: 44:36

man is getting no. Okay.

Owen Kindig: 44:38

All right. Is your coffee still working for you? Yeah,

J. Murray Murdoch: 44:41

it's a little cool.

Owen Kindig: 44:44

All right, I'll read John five. And it's read so that means Jesus said this truly. Verse 25. Truly, truly I say to you an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice So the Son of God, and those who here will live. For us, the Father has life in himself. So he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the son of man. Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs, will hear His voice and come out those who have done good to the resurrection of life. And those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment. Right, so now, how do you how do you read that? What is that telling you?

J. Murray Murdoch: 45:42

It tells me that the people who have placed their faith in Christ, whether it's the New Testament Church or the Old Testament saints, okay, we look forward to the coming of Christ, the Messiah, okay? That they are resurrected to eternal life. Okay, all those who have rejected Christ and not placed their faith in Christ, trusted in Christ will be resurrected, but it will be to judgment not. We just spend eternity in hell.

Owen Kindig: 46:13

Okay, so I have two questions that I have to ask you that. Okay. The first one is, I'm having trouble seeing what the distinction is then between because you told me earlier that the ones who are who have died in the past are already in a conscious state of separation from God, which is, which is I think you believe their final destiny. Okay, then what is the resurrection,

J. Murray Murdoch: 46:46

resurrection of the body. To rejoin the spirit, the essence to the body is as one as one. When Mr. P's died, he had inscribed on his tombstone, this is a BS, it's only the pod pieces. Shout out to viewers.

Owen Kindig: 47:10

All right. That's it that makes a great sermon story.

J. Murray Murdoch: 47:16

And so that the resurrection of the body, that's the physical resurrection, or the body is rejoined with a soul. Yeah. And totally separated from God are eternally gone in the presence of God.

Owen Kindig: 47:30

All right, so the ones who have done good, who are they?

J. Murray Murdoch: 47:34

Saints, those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ, right. Or look forward to the coming of Christ in place.

Owen Kindig: 47:40

Okay, so you're including in that then the the those who had faith in during the Jewish, but that would they could only have been from the Jewish people, right? Yes. So the rest of the world of mankind, there wasn't anybody.

J. Murray Murdoch: 47:54

There were, there were people who converted to Judaism.

Owen Kindig: 47:58

Yeah, but I mean, other than Jewish people who are people who place their faith in God, yeah. But But the number who were proselytize Jews was would be a small number, I mean, a total number had to be not all Jews would make it. I know, I know. So. So it must have been a relatively I mean, the Jews were never more than a few percent to 3% of the world's population, right? Even at the broadest and they went from 3% to 1%, during the Nazi era. Alright, so. So then, that seems to imply that for most of the world of mankind before Jesus, like 97% of them, they, they were, they did evil and when they are resurrected, in this picture, they will it will kind of seal that, that that their destiny is to continue. I'm trying to understand what you're saying that they,

J. Murray Murdoch: 48:58

unless they place their faith, they may not have understood the full theology, but if they recognize God, and place their faith in His redemption, because the Bible says there's no one there's without without your ability to grasp the truth.

Owen Kindig: 49:16

Romans one, yeah, yeah. Okay. So, what is the what is a resurrection of judgment? In your view? How would you explain that phrase?

J. Murray Murdoch: 49:26

Resurrection? Well, the context you would be done evil to the resurrection of the judgment, negative judgment, okay. Separation from God. Okay. resurrection of life being that separation, to resurrection to fellowship with God.

Owen Kindig: 49:41

Okay. Looking for another verse that I thought I'd put in here. Yeah, it's on the last page. Revelation, I should have given more of 22 but I only have one verse there. At least Psalm 2212 Behold, I come quickly and my reward is with me to give every man according as his work shall be. Who do you think that's

J. Murray Murdoch: 50:12

talking to? I think that's more for the saints. Resurrection of our work will be judged as saints and that would be done in the flesh will be separated, which is done. being reserved could also mean work. You got to hold work on the self separation from God worked on in the name of Jesus and to faith in Jesus. valuated okay. And I'm not familiar with the context, I'm not sure. Okay. Okay. It's one of those would be legitimate interpretations of verses that stand there.

Owen Kindig: 50:47

Okay. Just take a moment. The thing that that catches me on this is that in the 21st chapter, it describes the fact that the new heaven and new earth is set up. And it describes the it says that the first heaven and virtuous had passed away and the sea was no more and I saw the Holy City. I'm in 21. Two, I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God prepared as a bride of dawn for her husband. Do you think that's referring to the church? Okay, so now you've got the church coming down from heaven to earth. So we agree on that part. Then it says, Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. So who is that then? If it's not? If the Church is the bride, and they've just come down from heaven? Who is man,

J. Murray Murdoch: 51:41

I believe that God is going to dwell with us for eternity. Okay. And the men that are involved in that they're men, men that have placed their faith in Christ. So you don't man.

Owen Kindig: 51:53

So so it's just the Christians? Yes. But I thought the Christians are the bride.

J. Murray Murdoch: 51:59

They are the bride, but he's with his bride. He's with his bride and the bride. The people are there together?

Owen Kindig: 52:06

Well, then why does the bride need to come from heaven to earth? If they're already in heaven with God? Why do they need to come to Earth? Are they going to live on Earth? Wiscon

J. Murray Murdoch: 52:18

that's gonna be the whole new question. Yeah. Yeah. But the point is that they're going to be with God forever through all eternity.

Owen Kindig: 52:27

Right? I agree with you there the New Earth, okay.

J. Murray Murdoch: 52:31

And then that presents was God he will. Because eternal bliss. Yeah, boy tears from our eyes. No more death, sorrow, crying, pain, all those will be passed. And we will forever

Owen Kindig: 52:47

so I guess the question I've got to ask you then Marie is Do you think that God ever intends to wipe away all the tears of people on of the human race now? That are that are they're having now? No,

J. Murray Murdoch: 53:00

you don't have all people. Okay, so please repeat

Owen Kindig: 53:04

it during this age?

J. Murray Murdoch: 53:05

Yes. Okay.

Owen Kindig: 53:08

All right. Well, we have a lot more material, but I think that we, we run out of time. Tell me what, how much more time you think you can give this. Are you done?

J. Murray Murdoch: 53:20

I'm pretty weak. Okay. I'm pretty cool.

Owen Kindig: 53:22

Okay. Okay, so let's just let's just try to find one more verse to look at together. Let's try to find something that we can agree on. Let's turn to the one that the patient says plan. My fingers work, and I'm not finding it. Here it is. Okay. All right, one of my favorite passages Ephesians. One. Do you want to read that, starting with verse seven.

J. Murray Murdoch: 53:55

And then we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us and all wisdom and insight, making known to us the mystery of as well, according to His purpose, which he set forth in Christ has a plan for the fullness of time to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

Owen Kindig: 54:21

All right. How do you read that?

J. Murray Murdoch: 54:24

I read that as, as for those in Him we have redemption, salvation, okay, through His blood. That's the shedding of blood there's no remission of sin, right? forgiveness of our trespasses that God forgives us when we place our faith in Christ. Yeah. And that's all by His grace, not by our merit, not by our works, right. And then out of that context, he lavishes upon the church or the new believer or the believer. He gives us wisdom and insight, so that we can know what he wants for us to do what we need know His will, yeah, he desired for us. That desire is seeing first in Christ. Because price is the plan of our redemption and, and the plan for our eternal blessing, right? And then he brings all unity in him. Ultimately, our various understanding scripture, notwithstanding, we'll all be one that we are the church, the bride of Christ, is made up of Baptist and Presbyterian, press the Lutheran, back to castles because ultimately, it doesn't matter whether you're Protestant or a Catholic, doesn't matter whether you're what denomination? The question is asked is What have you done with Jesus? Your faith in Jesus, right? The Catholic Church, they read the gospel, every service, have a section in their service called the gospel. Yeah, that's read every time and it's a that outlines salvation through Christ. So he that's the plan for the fullness of time, uniting all things in him that in the person of Jesus Christ, faith in Christ, things in heaven, things on the earth, it all comes together the person of Jesus Christ.

Owen Kindig: 56:11

Okay. So when it says, who unites all things in heaven and on earth? It sounds like you're reading it at to mean all of the things who respond before he comes, hours are united, under one head, is that correct?

J. Murray Murdoch: 56:29

Time will come we all acknowledge Christ is the Redeemer. What do you mean? We all names on heaven Earth? Psalm, it'll be too late for salvation. They will acknowledge

Owen Kindig: 56:40

Oh, okay. So like the verse where it says, every knee shall bow? Yes, you don't think that means that every knee will actually bow and in the heart reverence for Christ?

J. Murray Murdoch: 56:52

They will, they will recognize their loss. I think eternal separation, hell is eternal separation from God with the full knowledge that you could have been with.

Owen Kindig: 57:02

Okay. All right. Well, I have to respectfully disagree on that. I think that when it says all things in heaven and earth will be united, I think that it means all things. I think that the purpose of Christ's return is to restore the world, teach the world and bring them to do reconciliation with God, whoever is willing, as it says it in Revelation 22, whosoever wills let him take the water of life freely. I see that as a future promise. And that the verse that we read in Revelation 22, that says, they will be judged as their works shall be. It doesn't mean as their works were in their first life, it means as their works will be in the millennia. That's how they will be judged. I think that's how I'm reading that, either. So

J. Murray Murdoch: 57:50

literal hell,

Owen Kindig: 57:52

no, I believe that, hell, she'll is death because in Revelation 20, it says that Death, and Hell are cast into the lake of fire. And then it says, straight up right after that it says, This is the second death, the lake of fire, is the second death. So to me, what that means is, those who are seeing the goodness of God and the mercy of God in giving them another opportunity to really learn about Jesus, and then still preferring selfishness, they will die again. But this time without a resurrection, this time without another opportunity for everlasting life. That's how I read it. But I do believe that the terms of righteousness are just as strong and straight as you believe them to be. It will require humility, it will require love, it will require a character of, of righteousness and obedience to live in God's universe. Different perspectives. Yeah, it's just two different perspectives on whether or not there is a second Age of Grace. That's really what it's coming down to. And I want to say that I love the life you have lived in service to people in this college and, and you know, everywhere you've gone. The example you've set the righteous way you've lived your life, the the leadership you've shown to young men, the leadership you've shown to young women and helping teach the college community about the equality in God's eyes between men and women, the equality between the races that you've taught the college community when they sometimes needed to be reminded of some things. I treasure, the example you've been in all of those areas. And I definitely don't think that agreement on these issues Jews is a test or or measure of one's spiritual growth. I just think that the Lord seems to have been pleased to leave the Christian church unclear on these issues. For some good reason.

J. Murray Murdoch: 1:00:20

I believe that's true. I now believe the Bible says now we see through a glass darkly. Right. When we see him understand, yeah, right. There's room for disagreement. Yeah.

Owen Kindig: 1:00:32

So I want to thank you for having this. What I consider to be an excellent man demand discussion, we're being frank with each other. We're asking each other questions. We're looking at the Scripture with an open mind. We're asking God to teach us. And there's no better way to live without than to do what I think we've just done. And I want to thank you for that. You're my You're my hero.

J. Murray Murdoch: 1:00:57

Oh, you're very welcome. To the years dick. I've enjoyed her fellowship. Oh, and now. The name change?

Owen Kindig: 1:01:04

Yeah. Fortunately, Jesus is the same yesterday, today. And forever. Yeah.

J. Murray Murdoch: 1:01:12

And I've enjoyed our friendships over the years. And this may be the last time we get to even see each other this side of glory. But you've had a dear friend and I care deeply for you.

Owen Kindig: 1:01:21

Thank you. Thank you. Do you have any closing thoughts?

J. Murray Murdoch: 1:01:26

I, I think my closing thoughts, I find myself now drawn to eternity. And very happy to see Jesus face to face very soon.

Owen Kindig: 1:01:35

Yeah. Very good. I'm sure you will.

J. Murray Murdoch: 1:01:39

I look forward to seeing you in glory, because I know you've placed your faith in Christ.

Owen Kindig: 1:01:42

Thank you. Thank you. All right. Thanks, brother. Thank you. You've been listening to Episode Five, the second half of my conversation between Jay Murray Murdock and myself, a man to man talk about hell, I hope you found it useful and helpful. And I urge you to use the tool. It's called SpeakPipe. On my website, go to it is near.com. And scroll down a little ways and you will find a link to speak pipe, which allows you to ask a question or make a comment. And I will then use it in future episodes to add audience participation to the project. And Jim Burson, it was kind enough to do that. In most cases. I mean, Jim Burson is a scholar. And he gave us seven minutes of scriptures on this topic. But if all you have is a question or a comment, or some brief remarks, please share them. And it'll give us a counterpoint to what I'm presenting in the it is near and the we are near podcasts. I'd also like to add that I've added a second podcast stream. In this project, it's called we are near and it's focused on the message of the Bible, to Christians today. It is near as primarily a podcast about what's going on in the world and doing the nearly impossible task of trying to talk to both Christians and non Christians at the same time about the baffling and frightening things going on in the world. And to explain what the Bible might have to say about these things, so that we can have some sense of, Well, where is this headed? What is the outcome? What should we do? What can we do? What can't we do? All of that will be discussed and it is near but we are near is about the conclusion of the process of faith and obedience that has been laid out for Christians to follow. Since the time that Jesus spoke to His disciples, according to the account in the book of Acts, he spoke to his followers, and they in turn have spoken to us in the writings of the Bible. And we have a lot of information about how to live seeing them that all these things shall be dissolved. Peter writes in his second epistle, what manner of persons ought we to be in all holy conversation and godliness? How should we live? How should we act? What can we expect when he does complete his return and wind up the affairs of the Christian church? What is the next step? And for much of Christian history, the expectation of the Christian church has been that once the Christian church gets its reward and is ushered into glory and grace that that's it. My life on planet earth comes to a unfortunate end. That's not what I believe the early writers, the apostles, and the writers of the New Testament believed. And they actually believed that the very next thing that would happen would be what all Jews have expected for 1000s of years. And that is that a Messiah, the Anointed from heaven, which would be Jesus in the early Christian view, that the, the Jewish Messiah would be Jesus, and he would restore not just the fortunes of Israel, and release them from the bondage and the persecution that they received at the hands of the Romans and others. But no, the Messiah would restore all things, he would restore life and opportunity for living on the land of the children of Israel. And he would also restore and replenish the entire world of mankind, and redeem the world, and bring about a world wide resurrection. So there are two steps here, then there is the completion of the Christian era, and the rewarding of faithful disciples of Jesus. And that shortly followed by the blessings of all the families of the earth, with the faithful followers of Jesus taking a prominent role in blessing the world. The children of Abraham are to bless the world. Jews and Christians are privileged in this regard, to be a blessing. But everyone will be blessed, according to my reading of what the Bible says. And so we are near. The second podcast that I've started in this series is about what Christians can expect now. And it's focused entirely on the life of a Christian, how to kind of focus our thoughts, get our actions in line with what's happening, and avoid making some of the mistakes that we can see Christians around us making right now quite a bit. Pointing fingers that people worrying about geopolitical events, worrying about elections, worrying about who's in charge. Those are all things that can be resolved and will be resolved by the incoming reign of Messiah. But what we have to worry about is our own obedience and our own righteousness and our own clear thinking. That's what Christians need to focus on is improving their own actions and the ethical, the level of kindness that they show towards the world around them, the level of hope that they impart towards the world around them. That's what Christians can and should be engaged in doing. Rather than trying to warn and cajole and argue and point fingers at the world of mankind and definitely not being engaged in violence and gunplay. With the world of mankind. We need to be just like Jesus, people who are peaceable, and not focused on acts of judgment and criticism of the people in the world around us. The poor need encouragement, the rich need reassurance that giving up their extra riches is not the end of the world. It's actually the beginning of a new era for all mankind. So everybody can participate peaceably in the process of relaxing their hold on what they have materially and sharing it with those who need it. This is the essence of what is happening in the world today. Okay, thanks for tuning in. And you've heard the end of episode five of it is near and you can look at this source for many interesting and challenging things about where the world is going and what we can do about it. Thanks for tuning in. to It is near and remember, even the bad news is good news

Unknown: 1:09:23

was long. I see Grace bed my. Grace A few years me nice me as well bye and Shana see I share with you Joe and Joe