Hell: A man to man talk

Two Christians have a calm, respectful discussion about a topic they profoundly disagree about. Sounds like fun, doesn't it? And maybe, impossible?  Murray grew up in orthodoxy, Owen grew up as a heretic. But they are good friends and brothers in Christ: and whichever side you are rooting for, you might learn something!

It is Near focuses on the alarming and the hopeful; the frightful and the forgotten; the blinding glare of giant problems, and the dark secrets that lurk even more menacingly in the shadows of global trends. "Amazing Grace" may have taught our hearts to fear, but for most Christians and non-Christians alike, divine grace as commonly conceptualized does not those fears relieve. It is Near will be informative, accessible, comforting, and challenging to every thinking person. It will call Christians to account and provide a breath of fresh air for secularists who, for once, would like to hear a conciliatory and intellectually honest message from a thoughtful Christian voice. Owen Kindig of Sitka, Alaska is your host, and is responsible for the content.

"Even the bad news is good news."

Transcript

J. Murray Murdoch: 0:00

effectively that means I'm virtually useless.

Owen Kindig: 0:04

While your brain is working,

J. Murray Murdoch: 0:05

I got my cane in one hand and the other hand doesn't work.

Owen Kindig: 0:13

All right, well welcome to "It is near". This is episode two. Episodes two and three are a conversation between myself and Murray Murdoch, J. Murray Murdoch. He just retired as professor of history at Cedarville University. I met him in 1984 when I started doing video production work for the University. And almost immediately, Dr. Murdoch and I became very good friends. But in this conversation, I asked Murray, if we could have a man to man talk about hell. We looked together at scriptures which seem to support the idea of hell, and other scriptures, which seemed not to. And we took turns, sharing how we read those scriptures, and had discussions on what we could agree on and what we could not agree on. What I like about this conversation is that both of us were civil toward one another. We started out loving each other, and we left the conversation, loving each other. Even though we had some significant differences of opinion about what the Bible says, both of us revere the Bible, both of us love God and trust Jesus for our salvation. But we have differences of opinion. And I wanted to start the "it is near" podcast with a topic that demonstrates how it's possible to be truth seekers, and yet challenge our traditional ideas, and still get along. I want to always model a kind of behavior that is curious about what other people think, and is kind to those who have a position that's different than my own. I hope you enjoy this conversation. And I hope it stimulates fresh thinking in you, no matter what opinion you hold on topics like the future of the human race. Thanks for listening.

J. Murray Murdoch: 2:16

Effectively, that means I'm virtually useless.

Owen Kindig: 2:20

Well your brain is working,

J. Murray Murdoch: 2:21

I got my cane in one hand, and on the other hand doesn't work.

Owen Kindig: 2:29

All right, well,

J. Murray Murdoch: 2:31

What are we gonna talk about today?

Owen Kindig: Well, I thought what would be really neat to do, would be to just go through some scriptures together. Jesus er, Paul talked about the discipline and the mercy of God, he called it "the goodness and the severity of God." And it's like, it struck me as like two poles, a positive and a negative electrical electrode, you know, it's like, there's love and there's justice. There's mercy, and then there's [JMM: 2:32

"punishment."] punishment. Yeah. And in the context, I think Paul was talking about the way in which those two things working together in tandem influenced our characters, and made us balanced children of God. So now, when we talk about the issue of hell, and the Christian teaching on Hell and the history of it, it opens up the opportunity to compare Scripture with Scripture and find, what is it really saying? Do we have the right paradigm in our minds as to what it's teaching us or not? And I know that you have grown and matured in one dominant or primary conception of orthodoxy. And I grew up in a different one. So I'm well past the years in which I couldn't understand how a person could read the Bible that I was reading, and come to almost opposite conclusions about the destiny of the human race. And I wanted to look at scriptures that seem to support the idea of hell, and compare notes with each other. How do you read this? How do I read this? And then I'd also like to look at some scriptures that seem NOT to support the idea of hell, and promote more of a universal concept of of reconciliation. And how do you read those scriptures? And how do I read those scriptures? We both know these scriptures. There's no new material here. It's just a matter of how do we -- how do we READ it? And so I wanted to just sit down and have two guys who love each other deeply. Who laugh a lot. Have a a wholesome man to man conversation about how do you read it, brother? And how do I read it? And let's just compare notes.

J. Murray Murdoch: 5:06

Fair enough. So you want me to read this first?

Owen Kindig: Okay, so yeah, so I brought two booklets, two copies of the same, I just compiled some scriptures. The first scripture I've got is on the first two pages, it's there's two different translations of it. 2nd Thessalonians, chapter one, verses three through 10. The first is Barclays translation. The second one is NASB. Which is, you know, a more mainstream translation. Why don't we turn to that second page and read it in NASB? Okay. And I don't know, we probably could start with verse three. Do you want to read, or do you want me to? [JMM: "You go ahead"] Okay. "We ought always to give thanks to God. For you brothers and sisters, as is only fitting." Why don't -- you know, what I'd like to do before we start, I'd like to have a prayer together. [JMM: "Okay. Sounds Excellent"]. Okay, would you like to pray? [JMM: 5:10

"Sure."] Okay.

J. Murray Murdoch: 6:01

Our Heavenly Father, we thank you for this opportunity to share together. We thank You, Father, for your Son, Jesus Christ and in His name we pray. And we pray that as we discuss theological issues and biblical issues with my friend, I pray, Lord, that you will reveal your will to us and your Spirit will speak to us, direct us and guide our conversation. And we pray that you will be honored through our time together today and through this podcast. In Jesus name. Amen.

Owen Kindig: Amen. Thanks for that lovely prayer. I'll start in on Second Thessalonians. If that's okay with you-- [JMM: "that's good"]. This is a good this is a good scripture that really feels like it's talking about hell when you know when you read it. Okay: [2 Thess 1: 6:31

3-10]"We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters, as is only fitting, because your faith is increasing abundantly, and the love of each and every one of you toward one another grows ever greater. As a result, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance, and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure. This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you indeed are suffering. Now, I'd like to pause there. Let's come back to those first, verses three through five. He talks about the plain indication of God's righteous judgment. And I'll come back when we when I share with you how I read this whole passage, I'll share with you my thoughts on why he chose that phrase, talking about the judgment of God in this section talking about how proud he is of the progress of the brethren in Thessalonica. So then he goes on to he's now shifting gears, it appears, toward the afflictions which they are suffering. And he says in verse six, "... for after all, it is only right for God to repay with affliction, those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted along with us, when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These people will pay the penalty of eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when he comes to be glorified among His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed." Okay, it's probably a good place to stop. Verse 10. So when you read this passage, what do you think it's saying?

J. Murray Murdoch: To me, the essence of the passage is seen in the phrase "for those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ", okay. So, the primary question you have to ask is, what is the gospel? Once you answer that question, then you can go on and understand the rest of it. Okay. So I think ..... let's first establish a couple of principles: 8:56

First , coming from my perspective, I have two faith principles, okay. A priori judgments, if you will,

Owen Kindig: 9:26

a priori judgments, judgments,

J. Murray Murdoch: things that I accept as fact without theoretical proof [ORK: "Okay"]. Principles. [ORK: "Okay, All right"]. And, and to say that, let me give you just a brief quick background. Sure. I believe that we all have a worldview. Yes, there are certain fundamental principles that we believe I have two fundamental principles that I build my life on. One, there is an extra-mundane, personal God. [ORK: "Right."] Two: that God reveals Himself to man in the pages of the Bible, [ORK: "Right."], which are inspired or God-breathed. [ORK: "Right."] And therefore all scripture being given by inspiration of God is profitable. [ORK: 9:29

"Right."] And we could talk about that for a long time.

Owen Kindig: 9:39

Sure. But we both agree with both of those points.

J. Murray Murdoch: 10:11

Those [are] two principles upon which I have built my entire life.

Owen Kindig: 10:14

right.

J. Murray Murdoch: Now then, going into Scripture, the gospel is "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Romans 3: 10:15

23,

Owen Kindig: 10:23

right.

J. Murray Murdoch: 10:24

The wages of sin is death, death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Owen Kindig: 10:29

right. I agree.

J. Murray Murdoch: 10:31

What is the gift of God? the Lord Jesus Christ. [ORK - "Yes",] And the Bible teaches us as a Western civilization notes when they celebrate Easter and and Christmas. [ORK - "Yes",] Christmas reveals the coming of Jesus to earth. And Jesus was sinless life on Earth, [ORK - "Right",], died on the cross when He died on the cross. He created a value for which he had no use. Sin, The wages of sin is death, right? He knew no sin, right? The Bible says He who knew no sin became sin, [ORK - "Right, Yes",] that through his redemption, we can be saved. [ORK - "Right",] But when he died on the cross, and said It is finished, He meant he had conquered sin. [ORK - "Yes",] so that anyone who placed their faith in Him as the Savior, could have everlasting life.

Owen Kindig: 10:39

[ORK - "Right",]

J. Murray Murdoch: 11:19

The gospel in short is, he who believes in Jesus Christ, the Savior is not condemned. Conversely, he that believeth not. is condemned already. [ORK - "He's already condemned"] because he has not believed, So that's the fundamental principle of Scripture. [ORK - "Right",] So when he speaks of those who believe the gospel, or do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, the speaking of those who see the gospel, see what we've just outlined that Jesus died for our sins, according to Scripture, rose again, the third day, according to Scripture, and therefore, he was seen of others and then ascended to be that the right hand of the Father where he's preparing a home for us.

Owen Kindig: 12:04

Right.

J. Murray Murdoch: 12:04

Now. If you accept that as fact, and then accept the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal Savior, acknowledge that you cannot save yourself -- [ORK - "Right",] Acknowledge that only God can save you and he has done that through Jesus Christ. [ORK - "Right"] -- then, then you have faith in Jesus Christ as your Savior. [ORK - "Right"] And that frees you from condemnation. [ORK - "Right"] there is no condemnation for those who believe that Jesus Christis their Savior, [ORK - "Right"] those that don't believe are condemned already. Why? Not because they're better or worse? No, because they have not believed on the name of Jesus.

Owen Kindig: 12:04

Right,

J. Murray Murdoch: 12:12

That's Biblical. [ORK - "Yeah, I agree"] Paraphrasing scripture.

Owen Kindig: 12:45

Sure, totally agree with everything you said.

J. Murray Murdoch: So at that point, then there is the principle that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. The wages of sin is death, But the gift of God, is Jesus Christ, who came and died on the cross, was buried and rose again, [ORK - "Right"] is the Savior that was a place of faith in Him shall have everlasting life. Yes, I agree. John 3: 12:47

16, For God so loved the world, and he gave his only begotten Son, that's Jesus,

Owen Kindig: 13:17

that whosoever ...

J. Murray Murdoch: 13:18

believes in Him

Owen Kindig: 13:19

shall not perish ...

J. Murray Murdoch: 13:20

but have everlasting life. [ORK - Right. I agree.] So that's the simple. That's the simple truth of Scripture. [ORK - Right. I agree.] And all those that therefore put there, if you put your faith in Jesus Christ, you're born again. [ORK - Yes.] Now you may disagree on other things, but that's the key. -- the message of salvation, that's the message God demands, right, and those who do not obey the gospel, pay the penalty of eternal destruction. [Owen did not mean to say "yes" here. He does not believe those who do not hear or obey the gospel in this life pay a penalty of eternal punishment. He believes that they remain "condemned already" as Jesus put it -- still dying under the original Adamic curse. But he died to release all mankind from that Adamic curse.]

Owen Kindig: 13:53

So what we're then talking about, since we both agree completely on those, everything you said, Okay, there's no possibility of life, aside from belief in Jesus Christ, and acceptance of his role and his place in God's arrangement. Absolutely. Yeah. So there remain a couple of questions, though, that are on the table for today. Okay. Okay. The first question probably would be, what does eternal destruction mean? Does it involve something that involves conscious punishment forever? Or does it is it something that that means death that doesn't end death that is essentially eternal? So in other words, death in the sense of non existence, death in the sense of no more consciousness, no more life, the absence of life? That's one question. Okay. So we'll have we'll have a few scriptures that we'll look at on that seem to be talking on both sides of that issue. Okay. And then the other question is, "Is there an opportunity beyond this period of life? Before Christ returns? Is there an opportunity after Christ returns? For those who were not? Who did not believe into Jesus during their lifetime? Will there be an opportunity for them to hear about the message of salvation and repent and learn the ways of God in the future during the Millennial Kingdom of Christ? Those are the two questions that I'd like to consider with you today. All right, is that fair enough?

J. Murray Murdoch: 15:36

Fair enough.

Owen Kindig: 15:36

Okay. So now, on the first point, you said just a moment ago when we were talking, you said "eternal destruction" And then you rephrased it, I think. I think you said eternal punishment. Yeah. And I understood you to mean or perhaps be hinting that eternal destruction doesn't necessarily mean destruction, it might mean, some kind of ongoing punishment. Yes. Is that your understanding? [JMM - "Yes"]. Okay. So that's, that's a question that we can address in this verse. And rather than getting into the weeds of Greek translation, and everything, it'd be better to go to other scriptures, probably. But that's a question that I would like to circle and say, the way I'm reading this is that eternal destruction means just that destruction. I see destruction as the different idea. I see it as annihilation I see it as, as the absence of life, the absence of consciousness -- no longer being a living soul. And I want you to feel free to tell me how you read it.

J. Murray Murdoch: 16:48

You want that now

Owen Kindig: 16:49

you can give it to me now.

J. Murray Murdoch: 16:51

To me. The penalty of eternal destruction is total absence of spiritual values. [ORK - "Oh."] Total separation from God. [ORK - "Okay."] . So God is in heaven with those who follow Him and believe in Him, [ORK - "Okay."] . believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, [ORK - "Okay."]. Christ takes those believers with him to abide with him for eternity, [ORK - "Okay."] Those who do not believe are separated from God for eternity, that means they move into -- to me, how is the total absence of goodness and righteousness through God.

Owen Kindig: 17:25

But there is consciousness?

J. Murray Murdoch: 17:26

There is consciousness. The devil is in hell, [ORK - "Okay."] And the devil reigns in hell. [ORK - "Okay."] So it's a life of continual destruction, continual destroying yourself, so to speak, you're being destroyed by your conditions of the absence, [ORK - "Okay."] Oh, good. God, righteousness, anything wholesome. and positive.

Owen Kindig: 17:47

Okay. All right. So then we'll have to look at some scriptures down the line that address that issue from a couple perspectives. Let's let me turn the page. The thing I wanted to do before we left this passage is to go back to verses three to five. (2 Corinthians 5) And I want to suggest that when he says that the things that he sees the growth and of their perseverance and faith in the midst of persecutions is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment, so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God. That that judgment that I, to me that implies the way I understand the word judgment to be used in Scripture, which means the guidance and the instruction and lawgiving and kind of coaching up process, I see judgment as the Bible describes it not so much as a final sentence, as it is to a destiny but rather a process by which a powerful and righteous authority, protects guides and illustrates to the subjects he's working with, to teach them how to live in a constructive way in society. And so, the first scripture that comes to mind just to support that idea is

J. Murray Murdoch: let me just say this. [ORK: 19:15

Okay, go ahead.] You're speaking out those who are trusted in Christ. Yeah, absolutely. Those who have not trusted in Christ are separate from this discussion.

Owen Kindig: 19:26

That's right. They are they're not involved in. They are not being they're being ignored. I would think, yes. Okay. They're not I think

J. Murray Murdoch: 19:32

that's important to point out. Yeah, you're saying, Okay, here's what happened to those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ. Exactly.

Owen Kindig: 19:39

So when so if that idea of judgment is true, then it to me it makes sense. That in first Peter for 17, that the bottom of this page here, which says First Peter, for Christian Standard Bible,

J. Murray Murdoch: 19:57

sorry, my hand doesn't work very well. So theory,

Owen Kindig: 20:01

I can help you. Keep going another one. There it is this page here. First Peter 417. He says in verse 16, if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God and having that name for the time has come for judgment to begin with God's household. And if it begins with us, so it seems to be equating us with God's household, he seems to be saying the judgment has already begun with us. What will be the outcome for those who disobey the gospel of God? So now he's talking about people who maybe do know Jesus, but don't obey the gospel that they've been that's been revealed to them? Is that possible? Do you think that there are Christians who fall short of the grace of God during their lives?

J. Murray Murdoch: 20:53

No, I think that the essence here, what it's saying is, it begins with us. Those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ, right. What will be the outcome for those who disobey the Gospel who reject the gospel of Christ? Okay. I hear you. I hear you see the separation there. There are two, two families, the family of God in the family of the unregenerate who turned your back on that, yeah. rejected Christ and Savior.

Owen Kindig: 21:18

So I can understand I can see, I can see your why you would read it that way. And I'm just saying that I'm not sure I read it the same way. I'm thinking that when we go back to that scripture we read just a moment ago, the one and in Thessaloniki, I think he might be talking about two groups of people when he says, flaming fire taking vengeance on those who refuse to recognize God. That's one group. That's the the unbelieving world. That's right. And on those who refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, those are ones who who are, who know what it is, they've heard, what the Gospel tells them to be, and to do. And they choose not to obey it. Right. So I'm saying, I'm thinking that maybe that's another group who are going to experience negative consequences in this tight run up to Jesus return.

J. Murray Murdoch: 22:19

Absolutely. Okay. All those who reject Christ, yeah, but they do it was a conscious awareness and deliberately turn your back on it, or they just disregard it.

Owen Kindig: 22:30

Okay, but I'm not seeing it quite the same way. I'm saying, those who have accepted Christ and started down the Christian pathway, but then stop obeying it and become disobedient Christians. That's how I'm, well, that's what I'm thinking might be his thought.

J. Murray Murdoch: 22:49

I believe the Bible teaches that if you are truly born again, you're in God's hand. And if you are genuinely born again, you have that new nature and new life. Okay, a child of God. Okay. And even though you fail him constantly, may even reject him,

Owen Kindig: 23:06

like Peter did when he was when he rejected. Yeah, but Peter was still God's. Yeah. And he repented. Yeah, yeah. And even

J. Murray Murdoch: 23:15

if you don't repent, you're still on God's hands. Okay, I truly believe. Okay, so that's where you and I can't judge. I can't judge whether you truly believe or not, right. And you can't judge whether I truly believe or

Owen Kindig: 23:26

not, I'm pretty sure you do. But

J. Murray Murdoch: 23:30

the point is, the point is, that's a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Yeah. For every individual. And, and if you truly are born again, that new birth, yeah, can imagine when asked, Can a man in a second time into his mother's womb be born again? Right? And Jesus answered, that which is born of the flesh, is flesh is flesh, that which is born of the Spirit? Spirit. Yeah. So that new birth is a spiritual birth, right? Believes in Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall experience the new birth, you'll be someone who says you'll be Sadat shall be saved, right. And you will experience a new birth.

Owen Kindig: 24:08

Okay. Now, so.

J. Murray Murdoch: 24:11

So if you're born again, so that's

Owen Kindig: 24:13

another issue. We should we'll have to come back to but let's save that for later. Okay. Okay. So that kind of that kind of means. Well, let me just ask you one question before we move on from this. Have you ever had a friend of a brother, someone you were close to in your Christian walk? How long have you been a Christian? 660 80 years 80 years how you go? Okay, I'm, I'm at 52 I think so. Have you ever had someone that you walked with and that you really felt so spiritual fruitage and then they went away they when they they seem to turn against it or turn against renounced the Lord or whatever?

J. Murray Murdoch: 24:58

Yeah, I've never heard renounce Lord. I've heard them renounce it by their lifestyle. Yeah, yeah, that's worse most of

Owen Kindig: 25:05

that. Yeah. How did you process that? Did you just decide that they never really were?

J. Murray Murdoch: 25:12

No, I decided that that only God do the answers. Yeah. And it wasn't mine to judge. Yeah,

Owen Kindig: 25:18

that's good. That's safe. That's a good do.

J. Murray Murdoch: 25:20

I do pray for them that they'll be restored to fellowship with God.

Owen Kindig: 25:24

Yeah. Okay. Good. Fair enough.

J. Murray Murdoch: 25:27

No, I'm always my father son. Yes. Even if Jackson's lifestyle and go wayward. Yeah, turn my back on everything he taught me. I'm still like the prodigal, like the prodigal son than the father is ready to meet you halfway if you come back. Yeah. But the point is, he never stopped being the father.

Owen Kindig: 25:45

That's right. And and stop being the son of the son. Yeah, I agree. I agree with that. So

J. Murray Murdoch: 25:50

if you're truly born again, at a new life, a spiritual life. The Bible teaches that we're born again, Christ takes residence in our souls whose Holy Spirit, right. And he says, I will never leave you

Owen Kindig: 26:05

or forsake you. Right? No other creature can separate us know. Right. Right. Okay, so let's, there's that's a third question that we'll have to maybe if we have time today talk about but let's go on, because we have the first two questions still still hanging in the air here. All right. So let's zero in on this issue of judgment, the process of judgment, what sentiment is like, and any scriptures that might give us some inkling of what judgments happen in the, you know, in the future, under Christ's return and so forth. And so the first verse that I have, if you look on this page here,

J. Murray Murdoch: 26:54

sorry, you have to turn the page.

Owen Kindig: 26:55

That's all right. All right. There we go. That's okay. That's okay. So judges to 18 is just kind of a basic working definition from Hebrew of what a judge is, I think, it says, this is from the ESV translation whenever the Lord raised up judges for them. You know, it's from the book of Judges, right? Whenever it got the Lord raised up judges for them, the Lord was with the judge. And he saved them from the hand of their enemies, He that is the judge saved them from the hand of their enemies, all the days of the judge for the Lord was moved to pity by their groaning because of those who afflicted and oppressed them. So the judges function as I read this text, is to save the Jewish people from the hand of their enemies. That was the function of the judge to save the Jewish people from the hand of their enemies. So my question to you is, then, if there is a time of judgment, when Jesus is the judge, could it be that the same idea will have sway that the purpose of of Jesus reign as a judge and his the invitation that he gives in Revelation to to the followers of Jesus, to share with him as judges? And Paul says, We will judge the world and even angels? Could it be that that function is a function of saving them from their enemies?

J. Murray Murdoch: 28:33

Okay. You got to put in context, okay, go ahead. The two testaments. Yeah. Old Testament, the New Testament.

Owen Kindig: 28:41

All right, fair enough.

J. Murray Murdoch: 28:42

The Old Testament there was a very literal punishment. They received looking to Christ in the future, but they did not have Christ. That's right. So they're different from the church.

Owen Kindig: 28:51

That's right. They are different part of the church. I agree. So they can't actually be eternally saved. They can't have everlasting life from whatever happens under the Jewish covenant. Right, right. Because they can they don't have Jesus looking forward

J. Murray Murdoch: 29:04

to Jesus, right. That's the Messiah. These hear so much about a Jewish history

Owen Kindig: 29:09

right. Now. Okay. I

J. Murray Murdoch: 29:10

agree with the New Testament context. I see two contexts for judgment. There's a judgment of those who reject Christ, and they are judged into the lake of fire or hell, right. And that's eternal separation from God. Okay. The other judgment is for those of us who have been redeemed through faith in Jesus Christ, okay. And we will be judged for our works in Christ. And our failures will become very evident to us at the Judgement Day, okay. None of us perfect even after we're in Christ. We're still falling creatures. Absolutely. We still fail. Yes. And we fail to live up to God's standard, which is very difficult for us to

Owen Kindig: 29:55

spice up to is scary when He's righteous. It's scary, so hot. Yeah, yeah.

J. Murray Murdoch: 30:00

Because we are so aware of our failures. Yeah. Even if we place our faith in Christ, we're failures. Yeah. disappointing to God. Yeah. But we have the satisfaction of knowing that we will not be judged for the life we've lived will be judged or whether we have faith in Christ. Yeah. Okay, the ticket to heavens, right? I agree. And eternal presence was priced, right. But there will be a judgement day when the saints are judged. And their works that were done in flesh will be wood, hay and stubble.

Owen Kindig: 30:31

Right. And First Corinthians three are failures

J. Murray Murdoch: 30:35

or disappointments, all that burned off his drawers,

Owen Kindig: 30:38

right? Yes, they will be saved to say the spirit will be saved. Yeah, I agree and glory. Yeah.

J. Murray Murdoch: 30:45

That's the judgment of the saints. Okay, I'll be judging the deeds that we've done. Right. The other desert is eternal separation from God. Okay. reserved for those who reject Christ and take their place

Owen Kindig: 30:58

in hell. Okay. All right. So then let's look at I have a page here that we can we'll skip over this is this is just kind of there's Strong's and Thayers on the Hebrew meaning of judgment. But but we'll just skip that. Let's look at a prophecy of Isaiah and we'll just zero in on the ninth verse. This is Isaiah. It says the song of Judah. Okay. Okay, verse nine, about two thirds of the way down the page. I long for you in the night. Yes. My spirit within me diligently seeks you for when your judgments are in the land. The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. Do you think this is a prophecy that relates to the millennium?

J. Murray Murdoch: 31:54

I'm not sure. Okay. I've never started to pass. Okay. Okay, maybe just reacting to it. I think you're dead in the land would seem to indicate the personal presence. Yeah. That could be what it's referring to. But the beginning

Owen Kindig: 32:16

of the first one says on that day, this song will be sung in the land of Judah. Yes, we have a strong city salvation is established as walls on ramparts, open the gates. So a righteous nation can come in one that remains faithful,

J. Murray Murdoch: 32:31

again, refers to righteousness, and then returns to the one who seeks the Lord seeks relief from the judgments. And we've learned we learned righteousness through understanding what's wrong. Yes. And and that's part of our learning process. We don't we know we're senators, but we, but the Bible teaches us God's standard.

Owen Kindig: 32:56

Yes. Yeah, I agree. I agree. And in fact, it says in the next verse, in verse 10, if the wicked but if the wicked man is shown favor, he does not learn righteousness, right? In a righteous land, he acts unjustly and does not see the majesty of the Lord. So it wouldn't work for unregenerate unrepentant people to be shown favor and are Christ's kingdom would it it wouldn't work wouldn't work. They have to come to a point of repentance before they can really learn anything.

J. Murray Murdoch: 33:36

Absolutely. Because that takes the shackles of the mind off the scripture says that when we place our faith in Christ, we're like babies. Yes. We have to desire that simple principles of Bible. Right? Sincere miracle, the word great.

Owen Kindig: 33:51

Yes.

J. Murray Murdoch: 33:53

But as you grow it's a like a just like a spiritual life is like, human life as you grow. You move from milk to meat and other and other businesses. You're the Adria and Christ where you ought to have be

Owen Kindig: 34:08

able to do some meat. Yeah, you ought to be back. But you're not. Yeah. feed you with milk. Right?

J. Murray Murdoch: 34:13

So there. The whole principle of the Christian faith is that once you place your faith in Jesus Christ, the Bible becomes your textbook of righteousness. Yes, the Bible teaches you have live, right? The Bible teaches you how to walk the way that God would have you to walk. We can easily walk in the flesh. We're not going in the Lord. Right now we battled an eternal battle in our lives as Christians between that original sin nature with which we were born, that we got from good old Adam, right? And, and that new nature that we have in Christ, who has received from Christ, right, and just by placing our faith in Christ, we don't all of a sudden become righteous, right and holy and sinless, and perfect. We battle Our entire existence, right with the decisions that we make, that we battle the world, the flesh and the devil, right? The world system is not anti Christian, right? The flesh desires to please itself and not God, right? And the devil is there to always invite you into the wrong path.

Owen Kindig: 35:19

Exactly. Okay, so then let's fast forward to the time when it says that the devil will be thrown into a pit, and a seal will be placed upon him so that he can deceive the nations no more until the 1000 years be fulfilled. So we're talking revelation 20. What is the purpose of the devil being taken out of that equation? And then of course, then all all that people have to do, the world system has probably already gone because there's no longer all the machinations of, you know, everything that causes evil, whether it be communism, or capitalism, whether it be money, power, or misleading religion, or any organization that tries that rises up against the authority of God and Jesus, Jesus is on the throne. And then all that's left is what's left of human habits, the character of people who are unregenerate, who had learned who no one ever taught the right way to live, because they were never part of knowing and following Jesus. What happens to them? Is this, is it possible that they will actually be now taught without the distraction and temptation of a evil genius like Satan, and a whole system that's aligned, you know, through advertising and marketing and everything else towards evil? What do you think about that?

J. Murray Murdoch: 36:56

Logically? Why else would you do that?

Owen Kindig: 36:59

That's my question. Yeah. Why else would God take Satan away from the world if it weren't so that the world could have a chance to hear something and learn something without distraction?

J. Murray Murdoch: 37:12

So it seemed like a logical understanding, but

Owen Kindig: 37:15

that's how it appeals to me. Okay, let's turn the page. Let's look at one other verse that I don't have in this note in this notebook. Let's look at Psalm -- I think it's the ninth chapter. And then I also want to look at John the fifth chapter, Psalm nine. I'll give you my Bible here as soon as I find it. Yes, Psalm nine, verses seven and eight. He says, "The Lord sits enthroned forever, he's established His throne for justice and he judges the world with righteousness. He judges the people with uprightness. The Lord is a stronghold for the oppressed, a stronghold in times of trouble. And those who know your name, put their trust in You, for You, oh, Lord, have not forsaken those who seek you. He who Avenges blood is mindful of the of them talking about the peoples of Zion, he says he does not forget the cry of the afflicted. And then skipping down a few verses, that was verses 11. And now skipping down a few more verses. He's He describes what sounds to me like something that happens at the end of maybe the end of the old and the beginning of the new sounds like it says, "the nations have sunk in the pit that they made in the net that they hid their own foot has been caught. The Lord has made himself known -- he has executed judgment, the wicked are ensnared in the work of their own hands." That sounds like a time when God is actively really intervening in human history. To me, that's how I read that. Then in verse 17, it says, "The wicked will return to Sheol and all the nations that forget God." so that's another good verse for how to read as thou this could be read, I I'd like to hear your thoughts on this. If you're if this verse is familiar to you, the wicked shall return to Sheol all the nations that forget God. And a lot of translations don't even say the word "return," they say "turn", the wicked would be turned to Sheol, but I've looked this up and in Hebrew commentaries, and they all seem to say that the word is REturned. It's not saying that the wicked are going to hell -- it is saying that the wicked are going to be REturned to hell. All the nations that FORGET God, which is the second half of that Hebrew doublet. So am I off base if I read this to mean that by the end of a period of time when there's judgment, when God is intervening and trying to teach people and get them, get them learning the judgments of God, if they remain wicked, if they remain stubbornly incorrigible and they don't get it, refuse to get it. Like the goats when Jesus talks in his parable about the sheep and the goats, right. They will return to Sheol -- hell, the Bible hell. right. And the nations that forget God, how can one forget God if they didn't already know him? That's my question.

J. Murray Murdoch: 40:50

They know of him. So they do not have a personal knowledge of okay, so their knowledge, they know there's a God, okay to reject.

Owen Kindig: 41:00

So, you think it could be fulfilled now? Yes. Okay. All right. I hear what you're saying. And, and that's a that's a good example of how the same Holy inspired word can mean can be seen in different light, depending on where what our assumptions and our paradigm is, I think well,

J. Murray Murdoch: 41:22

your your context is always supreme.

Owen Kindig: 41:25

Yeah. I agree.

J. Murray Murdoch: 41:28

All right. So that was going to help me all eternity.

Owen Kindig: 41:31

You do you think that that when they do you think that when they do you think that they are if they are dead, they are already inhale conscious

J. Murray Murdoch: 41:39

presence are separate from God. That's

Owen Kindig: 41:43

okay. So do you think -- do you believe -- then that anybody who has not known God when they died, went to hell? And is conscious? What about those before Jesus when it wasn't really an option to know a saving and have a saving knowledge of God through Jesus,

J. Murray Murdoch: 42:03

the Old Testament, they look forward to the knowledge of Christ, they look forward to Christ. Okay, so that's seen in the sacrifices. Lamb sacrifice? Yes. They look up, they're looking forward to the Messiah is coming into salvation.

Owen Kindig: 42:18

So, do you think that within the Jewish nation, there were some who, you know, kind of had a heart that was toward God? Absolutely. And others who did not? Yes. Okay. So the, so the righteous in the in that time, went to a conscious, did they go to heaven? When they died? Okay. And the ones who did not know God went to a conscious, separate separation. Okay. All right. So then that brings us to the next set of scriptures. And that's under the heading sleep.

J. Murray Murdoch: 43:04

Fortunately, these things did work at one time.

Owen Kindig: 43:07

Yeah. For a long time. Or a long time. Yeah.

J. Murray Murdoch: 43:13

Before they stopped functioning,

Owen Kindig: 43:15

when's the last time you held a tennis racket?

Unknown: 43:18

Oh, that was late 90s. I broke my hip playing tennis.

Owen Kindig: 43:25

Oh, my gosh, you fell on the court? Yeah. I did with

J. Murray Murdoch: 43:29

my doubles partner. Now. And following that, then I had surgery. I had a hip replaced me hip replacement. Okay. And it didn't take so they had to do a full hip replacement. Oh

Owen Kindig: 43:40

my gosh, so

J. Murray Murdoch: 43:44

no tennis after that.

Owen Kindig: 43:45

No tennis, but were you able to walk well, after that? Yeah. Yeah. And

Unknown: 43:49

then I have both knees replaced, too. Okay. I'm a bionic man. Long valve and my lung. Heart. Yeah. That's in my heart. Good. I'm rebuilt.

Owen Kindig: 44:04

Yeah. Good. It's still not as good as the original though. All right. All right. So now I'm sorry, I'm doing all the reading I I envisioned us as you reading some of it and me reading some of it. I'm just kind of going back and forth a little bit more. Are you able to read these verses at the top? Sure. Okay. Why don't you read those?

J. Murray Murdoch: 44:28

And David slept with his father's hand was buried in the city of David. Okay, kings to 10 Okay. And it's first Kings 20 to 40. So I have slept with his fathers. And Hosea, his son reigned in his place.

Owen Kindig: 44:46

Okay, how do you read that?

J. Murray Murdoch: 44:49

I think that slept death and burial. And they have suffered as fathers. I would say that indicated that And most freezin indicate that they were died and buried dead died and buried. Okay, and tell us where they were buried in the city of David. Right. Okay. When they have stopped us, as fathers does refer to where the place where he was. Yeah, I want to point out who randomness. Right? Nice. Okay.

Owen Kindig: 45:22

So do you agree that David was, in God's judgment, a righteous man and that Ahab, in God's judgment would not have been a righteous man?

J. Murray Murdoch: 45:33

I would not infer that simply on the basis of these verses, but I think that would be true.

Owen Kindig: 45:38

Yeah. Because of what you know about Ahab's history and what he did and so forth. Right. Okay. So what's your understanding? Then? It your Are you saying that slept is an equals died? Yes. Okay. Do you think that that implies death is a is a condition of unconsciousness, like sleep?

J. Murray Murdoch: 46:08

No, I think death is different than consciousness and unconscious, that is separation from the body than the spirit, the spirits, so lives were in both, but we no longer in our body. So okay, so this the thinking of the physical body was buried.

Owen Kindig: 46:31

So, so it's really not talking about the soul. It's talking about the the, the physical body

J. Murray Murdoch: 46:39

separated from us.

Owen Kindig: 46:41

Okay, well, let me ask you then about another verse. We're going to come back to slept. And if again, but before we do, I'd like to look at I'd like to look at a verse in x. And I don't think I put it in the booklet. Think it's the second chapter of Acts. It's in Peter's sermon that he gave on the day of Pentecost. All right, I'll just read this from the ESV. Starting in, I'll start with 22. Because I love the way Peter talks and thinks. Men of Israel hear these words Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves know. This Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. God raised Him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it. For David says concerning him. Now we're at verse 26. The second half of verse 25, I saw the Lord always before me, for he is that my right hand that I may not be shaken. Now, verse 26, Therefore my heart was glad and my tongue rejoiced, my flesh also will dwell in hope. For you will not abandon my soul to Hades are let your holy ones see corruption. You have made known to me the paths of life, and you will make me full of gladness with Your presence. Now, verse 29, brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died, and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day, being therefore a prophet and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne. He foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that He was not abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh the corruption. This Jesus God raised up and of that we all are witnesses. All right, so my question to you is this. As I read this passage, it seems to be saying that he's talking about the soul of Jesus. And he says that the soul of Jesus went to Hades, but he wasn't left there. After three days, he was resurrected out of out of it, and the soul became alive again. Is that correct? Is that the correct way to read it?

J. Murray Murdoch: 50:03

Yes. In the scripture passage that I would refer you to a B. E, who knew no sin became sin. Right? pay the penalty for sin.

Owen Kindig: 50:16

For us, is that in Hebrews nine,

J. Murray Murdoch: 50:19

I can't recall. Okay, I'll look it up. Go ahead, you know, sin became sin for us. And in that value, when in fact what happens when Christ died on the cross, he died. But he created a value there for which he had no use. He didn't need to die. Okay, and he experienced death and hell for us. And he, you know, knew no sin became sin for us. Have you ever find that passage that to the righteousness of so how He paid the price of sin, okay? His death on the cross was to pay the price of sin. And so when on the cross, he added those words in his finished, eternal battle with sin, it's finished, right? Because he knew no sin, became sin for us, pay the price for that sent through His death. But sin could not hold him a great good not hold him because he knew no sin. He absorbed our sin, and then the righteousness of his being in the race, the sinlessness of his own being awesome to be resurrected from the dead. And he now dwells with the right hand of the Father making intercession for us. So the whole essence of the gospel does he died on the cross for our sins, He became sin, that for us, so that through His righteousness, we could be saved. So he took the penalty of sin, right and discharged, because he knew no sin. Yeah, right. He paid the penalty, right, but the grave could not hold him because he had paid the penalty, right? His righteousness shone through and he was resurrected.

Owen Kindig: Second Corinthians 5:21, is that verse? Second Corinthians 5: 52:02

21. For our sake, he made him to be sin, who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. May I back up and read a few verses before that? Sure. That's a powerful versus it is powerful for how in the world could we become the righteousness of God? That's that's mind boggling.

J. Murray Murdoch: 52:33

Only through Jesus Christ. Absolutely. Using his righteousness to us, right? Oh, then his righteousness alone follows I stand before the throne. Right was the way one him right?

Owen Kindig: 52:45

Yes, yes. I love that. Yeah, that's great. Okay, so let's start with verse 13. For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God. If we are in our right mind, it is for you. For the love of Christ controls us. Because we have concluded this -- that one has died for all. That's about the halfway point. So we will break here and we will continue this conversation in episode three of "it is near"